President Barack Obama and Republicans attempt to work together, Democrats intentionally avoid making legislative decisions, and James Risen discusses "Pay Any Price." (21:28)
>> Jon: WELCOME TO THE"DAILY SHOW."
MY NAME IS JON STEWART.
MAN, MAN DO WE HAVE A SHOWTONIGHT.
MY GUEST JOURNALISTJAMES RISIN.
HE'S SPILLING THE BEANS-- I HOPEHE'S ON THE SHOW TONIGHT.
THEY COULD BE DRAGGING HIM AWAYRIGHT NOW.
I DON'T KNOW.
WE SAW HIM IN THE GREEN ROOM,BUT WHO KNOWS WHAT SECURITY IS
LIKE BACK THERE.
FIRST, TUESDAY NIGHT, THEDEMOCRATS GOT TAKEN OUT BACK AND
OLD-YELLLER'D BY THE AMERICANELECTORATE.
( LAUGHTER )IF YOU DON'T KNOW, YOU SHOULD
RENT IT.
IT'S PRETTY GOOD UP UNTIL THATPART.
( LAUGHTER )IT WAS A MAJOR REPUDIATION,
REPUDIATION OF THE PRESIDENTWHO, ACCORDING TO REPORTS, SPENT
ELECTION NIGHT IN HIS SWEATPANTS DROWNING HIS SORROWS IN
PINT FORCE ONE.
( LAUGHTER )THE NEXT DAY, THE PRESIDENT WENT
BEFORE THE WHITE HOUSE PRESSCORPS TO CONFRONT THE WHY OF HIS
DEFEAT.
>> "I'M A SINGLE MOM AND AT THEEND OF THE MONTH IT'S REALLY
HARD FOR ME TO PAY THE BILLS."
( LAUGHTER )( APPLAUSE )
>> Jon: THAT'S NOT WHY YOULOST.
ACTUALLY, THAT JOKE WAS BROUGHTTO YOU BY CONTEXT, CONTEXT.
LOOK AT HOW SILLY THE WORLDWOULD BE WITHOUT CONTEXT.
( LAUGHTER )ACTUALLY, THE DAMAGE-- THE
DAMAGE FROM THIS YEAR'S MIDTERMSPRETTY EASY TO CATALOG.
>> WELL, THIS MORNING, THE PARTYIS IN SHAMBLES.
>> THERE WILL BE A LOT OFSOUL-SEARCHING AS YOU CAN
IMAGINE.
>> I THINK THE DEMOCRATS ARESTILL IN SORT OF STAGE THREE OF
THE FIVE STAGES OF GRIEF.
>> Jon: THE DEMOCRATICPARTY IS NO MORE.
IT HAS CEASED TO BE.
IT'S SHUFFLED OFF THIS MORTALCOIL AND JOINED THE CHOIR
INVISIBLE.
SORRY, I HAVEN'T COME DOWN FROMJOHN CLEESE BEING ON THE SHOW
YESTERDAY.
WAIT A SECOND.
THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY INSHAMBLES.
A LOT OF SOUL-SEARCHING.
STAGES OF GRIEF.
WHY IS IT THOSE PHRASES ARE SOFAMILIAR?
>> THE LATEST SIGN OF AREPUBLICAN PARTY SIMPLY IN
SHAMBLES.
>> FOR MORE REPUBLICAN SOULSEARCHING IS NOW UNDER WAY IN
THE WAKE OF THE NOVEMBERELECTIONS.
>> THE REPUBLICANS ARE KIND OFGOING THROUGH THEIR FIVE STAGES
OF OF GRIEF AFTER THE ELECTION.
>> Jon: OH, RIGHT!
OH!
I KNOW WHY THOSE PHRASES ARE SOIN MY HEAD BECAUSE THEY SAID THE
EXACT SAME ONES ABOUT THEREPUBLICAN PARTY WHEN ITS DEATH
WARRANT WAS SIGNED IN 2012.
A MERE 24 MONTHS, APPARENTLY,BEFORE IT BURST FORTH
FROM ITS GRAVE LIKE JESUSCHRIST.
OR A ZOMBIE, DEPENDING ON YOURPERSONAL BELIEFS.
( LAUGHTER )IT'S AS THOUGH EVERY EVENT THAT
HAPPENS IS VIEWED BY OUR MEDIASINGULARLY AS THOUGH IT DIDN'T
EXIST IN ANY PREVIOUS-- OH,WHAT'S THE WORD WE'RE LOOKING
FOR?
OH, RIGHT-- CONTEXT.
( LAUGHTER )( APPLAUSE )
IT'S THE ( BLEEP ) YOU HAVE INYOUR TAPE LIBRARY THAT GIVES
SEEMINGLY ISOLATED INCIDENTSPERSPECTIVE.
( LAUGHTER )REGARDLESS OF WHICH PARTY IS
CURRENTLY GRIEVING, THEY'REGOING TO HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO
GET ALONG.
>> WE OUGHT TO SEE WHAT AREAS OFAGREEMENT THERE ARE AND SEE IF
WE CAN MAKE SOME PROGRESS FORTHE COUNTRY.
>> I'M CERTAINLY GOING TO BESPENDING A LOT MORE TIME WITH
THEM NOW BECAUSE THAT'S THE ONLYWAY THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE
TO GET SOME STUFF DONE.
AND I-- I TAKE THEM AT THEIRWORD THAT THEY WANT TO PRODUCE.
>> Jon: YOU KNOW WHAT?
I'M SORRY, THAT-- THAT ISINSPIRING.
TO SEE-- TWO LONG-TERM RIVALSCOME TOGETHER.
AFTER AN ELECTION AND UNITEAROUND A SHARED MESSAGE OF
DISINGENUOUS ( BLEEP ).
( LAUGHTER )BUT, OBVIOUSLY, THEIR
RELATIONSHIP IS GOING TO CHANGE.
THIS WAS THEIR RELATIONSHIP LASTYEAR.
>> SOME FOLKS STILL DON'T THINKI SPEND ENOUGH TIME WITH
CONGRESS.
WHY DON'T YOU GET A DRINK WITHMITCH McCONNELL, THEY ASK.
REALLY?
( LAUGHTER )WHY DON'T YOU GET A DRINK WITH
MITCH McCONNELL.
>> Jon: BOOM! DROP THE MIC.
WELL, THAT WAS THE OLDRELATIONSHIP.
THIS IS THE RELATIONSHIP NOW.
>> ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE THATDRINK CAN MITCH McCONNELL NOW
YOU JOKED ABOUT AT THE WHITEHOUSE CORRESPONDENTS' DINNER.
>> YOU KNOW, ACTUALLY, I WOULDENJOY HAVING SOME KENTUCKY
BOURBON WITH MITCH McCONNELL.
>> Jon: FIRST OF ALL, NOYOU WOULDN'T.
( LAUGHTER )AND SECOND OF ALL, WE ALL KNOW
SENATOR McCONNELL ISN'T ABOURBON FAN. HIS PREFERED DRINK
IS AN ALGAE AND POND WATERCOCKTAIL WITH A SOUCIANT OF
MUD AND GARNISHED WITH AREFRESHING LEAF OF LETTUCE.
NOW YOU KNOW, THERE'S ACTUALLYBEEN A LITTLE BIT OF CONTROVERSY
THAT WE'VE BEEN LIKENING THEPRESUMPTIVE SENATE MAJORITY
LEADER MITCH McCONNELL TO ASLOW-TALKING TORTOISE MAN.
( LAUGHTER )I WANT TO-- I WANT TO STATE FOR
THE RECORD WE ARE NOT.
WHAT WE ARE DOING IS ASSERTINGTHAT MITCH McCONNELL IS
LITERALLY, BIOLOGICALLY, ATORTOISE.
( LAUGHTER )( APPLAUSE )
SPECIFICALLY A 180-YEAR-OLDLIVING, BREATHING, GIANT
TORTOISE OF THE SPECIESALDABRACHELYS GIGANTEA
WHO HAS, DESPITE NOT BEINGINDIGENOUS TO NORTH AMERICA
SOMEHOW ASCENDED TO APROMINENT LEADERSHIP ROLE IN THE
UNITED STATES SENATE.
AND SO I SAY TO SENATORMcCONNELL, KUDOS.
SO WITH BOTH -- THAT WAS A LONGRIDE, WASN'T IT?
THAT WAS A LONG WALK.
YOU REALLY DIDN'T KNOW WHERE WEWERE GOING ON THAT.
SO WITH BOTH PRESIDENT OBAMA ANDSENATOR McCONNELL GIVING LIP
SERVICE TO ACTUALLY WORKING,MAYBE THERE CAN BE A TRUCE
BETWEEN THESE TWO PARTIES.
>> MITCH McCONNELL AND JOHNBOEHNER, THE SPEAKER OF THE
HOUSE, THEY ARE CALLING FORANOTHER REPEAL OF OBAMACARE.
>> THE BATTLE OVER IMMIGRATIONREFORM AS PRESIDENT OBAMA VOWS
THAT HE WILL GET REFORM DONEWITH OR WITHOUT CONGRESS.
>> THE TEMPORARY TRUCE BETWEENPRESIDENT OBAMA AND CONGRESS
LASTED LESS THAN 24 HOURS.
♪ IT IS THE DAWNING OF THE AGEOF AQUARIUS ♪♪
♪ AGE OF AQUARIUS ♪( LAUGHTER )
REALLY, IF YOU LOOK AT WHATMcCONNELL SAID YESTERDAY, IT
WAS CLEAR THIS PARTNERSHIP WASDOOMED FROM THE START.
>> THERE'S NO PERSONALITYPROBLEM HERE OR ANYTHING LIKE
THAT.
I THINK MY ATTITUDE ABOUT ALLTHIS AT THIS POINT IS TRUST,
TRUST BUT VERIFY.
>> Jon: TRUST BUT VERIFY.
WHERE HAVE I HEARD THAT BEFORE?
>> THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS TREATYTRANSCENDS NUMBERS-- TRUST BUT
VERIFY.
>> Jon: THERE YOU HAVE IT!
THE HIGH-WATER MARK OF OUR MIEWERA OF BIPARTISANSHIP IS THE
SENATE MAJORITY LEADER IMPLYINGHE IS TO OBAMA AS REAGAN WAS TO
THE LEADER OF OUR TOTALITARIANNUCLEAR ARMED NEMESIS-- A.K.A.,
THE EVIL EMPIRE.
( LAUGHTER )WELL, MY FEELING OF DESPAIR IS
BROUGHT TO ME BY HISTORICALCONTEXT.
( LAUGHTER )IT'S WHY OLD PEOPLE ARE SAD.
( LAUGHTER )WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ).
>> Jon: WELCOME BACK.
SO, THE DAY AFTER THE DEMOCRATSGOT THEIR BALLS WAXED, PRESIDENT
OBAMA ANNOUNCED THAT HE WASGOING TO TAKE ACTION WHETHER THE
NEW CONGRESS WASWITH HIM OR NOT.
>> THE PRESIDENT ALSO SAID HEWILL BYPASS CONGRESS WITH AN
EXECUTIVE ORDER ON IMMIGRATIONREFORM.
>> I'M EAGER TO SEE WHAT THEYHAVE TO OFFER, BUT IN THE
MEANTIME, LET'S FIGURE OUT WHATWE CAN DO LAWFULLY THROUGH
EXECUTIVE ACTIONS TO IMPROVE THEFUNCTIONING OF THE EXISTING
SYSTEM.
WHAT I'M NOT GOING TO DO IS JUSTWAIT.
>> Jon: I MEAN, IT'S BEENTWO DAYS.
SHOULD I CALL THEM?
SHOULD THEY CALL ME?
I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.
I DON'T WANT TO LOOK DESPERATE,BUT I AM A LITTLE DESPERATE.
BUT IT DOES RAISE THE QUESTION.
HE IS EXCITED ABOUT DOING STUFFNOW BUT WHAT WAS HE DOING BEFORE
THE ELECTION?
>> MORE CONTROVERSIAL DECISIONSDELAYED BY THE OBAMA
ADMINISTRATION UNTIL AFTER THEELECTIONS.
>> EVERYTHING FROM THENOMINATION OF A NEW ATTORNEY
GENERAL TO DECISIONS ON THECONTROVERSIAL KEYSTONE XL
PIPELINE, IMMIGRATION REFORM,CORPORATE TAX REFORM, AND RATES
FOR THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT.
>> THE WHITE HOUSE SAYS THATACTION WAS TAKEN AT THE REQUEST
OF SENATE DEMOCRATS.
>> THREE SENATORS, MARK PRYOR,KAY HAGAN, AND MARY LANDRIEU
ASKED THE PRESIDENT TO DELAY HISDECISION TO HAVE SOME EXECTUTIVE
ORDERS MITIGATING IMMIGRATION,DEPORTATION.
>> Jon: SENATE DEMOCRATSWANTED TO AVOID VOTES ON
CONTENTIOUS ISSUES SO THEYWOULDN'T HAVE TO TAKE UNPOPULAR
STANCE THAT MIGHT COST THEMREELECTION.
AND THEY GOT PRESIDENT TO GOALONG WITH IT.
IT'S A WELL-KNOWN POLITICALMANEUVER KNOWN AS THE
CHICKEN ( BLEEP ) GAMBIT.
IT'S NAMED, OF COURSE, FORSENATOR DICKLESS H. CHICKEN
( BLEEP ).
WHO, WHEN HE WAS ASKED WHETHERHE SUPPORTED THE EMANCIPATION
PROCLAMATION, FAMOUSLY SAIDWHAT?
HUH?
AND THEN HAD TO PRETEND TO BEHARD OF HEARING FOR THE REST OF
HIS LIFE.
( LAUGHTER )BUT IF YOU'RE BASING YOUR AGENDA
PURELY ON WHAT HELPS RED-STATEDEMOCRATS, HOW ABOUT THE
KEYSTONE PIPELINE?
THE KEYSTONE PIPELINE IS MOREPOPULAR IN RED STATES THAN
CHICK-FIL-A'S NEW PATRIOTBASKET.
WHY NOT JUST APPROVE THAT BEFORETHE ELECTION?
>> FRIDAY'S OBAMA ADMINISTRATIONDECISION TO DELAY CONSTRUCTIONG
OF THE KEYSTONE PIPELINE AGAINMAY TURN OUT TO BE A BOOST
FOR DEMOCRATS WHO OPPOSE THEPROJECT.
IT ALLOWS VULNERABLE DEMOCRATSFROM ENERGY-PRODUCING RED STATES
ROOM TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROMPRESIDENT OBAMA AND OPPOSE HIM.
>> Jon: OH, COME ON.
DEMOCRATS ARE NOT SO CYNICALTHAT THE PRESIDENT WOULD DELAY
ACTION ON A PROJECT JUST SOFELLOW DEMOCRATS COULD ATTACK
HIM FOR DELAYING THAT ACTION.
>> LOUISIANA SENATOR MARYLANDRIEU, DENOUNCING THE LATEST
DELAYS SAYING, "THIS DECISION ISIRRESPONSIBLE, UNNECESSARY, AND
UNACCEPTABLE."
>> ALASKA SENATOR MARK BEGICHSAYS, "I AM FRANKLY APPALLED AT
THE CONTINUED FOOT DRAGGING BYTHIS ADMINISTRATION."
>> ARKANSAS'S MARK PRYOR SAID,"THERE'S NO EXCUSE
FOR ANOTHER DELAY.
THE PRESIDENT NEEDS TO APPROVETHIS PROJECT NOW."
>> Jon: ADDING -- WINK.
SO LAST APRIL, SEVEN MONTHS AGO,OBAMA DELAYS HIS KEYSTONE
DECISION.
RED-STATE DEMOCRATS GET POINTSFOR ATTACKING THE PRESIDENTS,
BLUE-STATE DEMOCRATS GET POINTSFOR ATTACKING THE PIPELINE.
IT WAS A WIN-WIN.
EXCEPT FOR ONE THING.
THEY ALL LOST!
PRYOR LOST.
HAGAN LOST, BEGICH LOST.
THE ONLY ONE WHO HASN'T LOST ISLANDRIEU.
SHE'S GOING INTO A RUN OFF,WHICH SHE'S GOING TO LOSE.
IT'S LIKE DEMOCRATS CAME UP WITHTHIS PLAN TO PRODUCE SPRINGTIME
FOR HITLER BUT ONLY BECAUSE THEYREALLY THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD
( BLEEP ) PLAY.
AND BY THE WAY, THAT KEYSTONEPIPELINE?
YOU DELAYED THE DECISION ON THATBACK IN APRIL.
THAT'S SEVEN MONTHS BEFORE THEELECTION.
YOU DON'T HAVE THAT KIND OFGOVERNING TIME.
THESE ELECTIONS ARE TWO YEARSAPART.
IF YOU TAKE OUT THE SEVEN MONTHSBEFORE THE ELECTION, WHERE
THINGS ARE GOING, AND THEN YOUGO FROM THE FIRST FEW MONTHS OF
THE NEW ELECTION WHERE THE NEWGUYS WHERE UNPACKING AND
FIGURING OUT THE E-MAIL, PLUSSUMMER RECESS PLUS SPRING
RECESS, AUTUMN APPLE PICKING,THE WEEK WHEN THE SENATORS'
PARENTS COME TO VISIT, HOUSE OFREPS SADIE HAWKINS DANCE,
OBVIOUSLY ALL THE TIME SPENTFUND-RAISING, BASICALLY
THERE'S ONE DAY IN MARCH WHERE,WEATHER PERMITTING,
YOU THINK YOU CAN GET ( BLEEP )
DONE WITHOUT POLITICALLY HARMINGONE THING OR THE OTHER.
AND APPARENTLY, THIS YEAR,DEMOCRATS SPENT THAT DAY SITTING
AROUND TRYING TO MAKE THATSOUND.
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )SO TO RECAP.
THE DEMOCRATS' 2014 STRATEGYINSTEAD OF DOING THINGS THAT THE
PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR THEM WOULDLIKE, THEY DECIDED TO NOT DO
ANYTHING SO AS NOT TO OFFEND THEVOTERS WHO ALREADY DIDN'T LIKE
THEM.
( LAUGHTER )OR TO PUT THAT IN THE CLASSIC
WORDS OF DICKLESS H. CHICKEN ( BLEEP )?
WHAT?
WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.
( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )
WELCOME BACK MY GUEST TONIGHT ABEST SELLING AUTHOR
HIS NEW BOOK IS CALLED "PAY ANYPRICE
GREED, POWER, AND ENDLESS WAR."
PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO OURPROGRAM, JAMES RISIN.
SIR.
NICE TO SEE YOU.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> Jon: LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE,"THIS BOOK IS CALLED PAY ANY
PRICE GREED, POWER, AND ENDLESSWAR." THE LAST TIME WAS FOR
THE BOOK "STATE OF WAR " WHICHWAS SORT OF AN EXPOSE A OF
WIRELESS WARRENTS, WIRETAPPING,THE N.S.A.
>> RIGHT. RIGHT. RIGHT.
>> Jon: IT WAS A POWERFUL BOOK.IT HAD A LOT OF SECRETS IN IT.
I REMEMBER LEANING OVER TO YOUAFTER THE INTERVIEW AND
GOING,"ARE YOU GOING TOGET IN TROUBLE FOR THIS?"
AND DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOURRESPONSE WAS?
>> I SAID NO, NO, TROUBLE ATALL.
>> Jon: TELL ME WHAT'S BEENGOING ON THE LAST COUPLE OF
YEARS?
( LAUGHTER ).
>> WELL, THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEENAFTER ME EVER SINCE FOR THAT
BOOK, AND THEY'RE STILLAFTER ME, IN FACT.
>> Jon: HOW-- HOW MUCHLEGAL TROUBLE ARE YOU-- ARE YOU
ACTUALLY IN NOW, OR IS THIS ANUISANCE HARASSMENT TO CAUSE YOU
PAUSE?
>> WELL, THEY'VE BEEN DOING APRETTY GOOD JOB OF IT IF IT'S
JUST A NUISANCE BECAUSE IT'SLASTED SEVEN YEARS.
THEY HAVE SUBPOENAED ME THREE ORFOUR TIMES.
AND THERE'S A TRIAL SCHEDULED INJANUARY.
>> Jon: A TRIAL.
YOU ARE GOING TO BE ON TRIAL.
>> NO, THEY WANT ME TO TESTIFYIN THE TRIAL.
>> Jon: OH, THAT'S RIGHT,THAT'S WHAT IT IS.
YOU TESTIFY AGAINST SOMEGENTLEMAN.
>> BUT, I DON'T KNOW, IT'S ALITTLE UNCLEAR WHERE IT IS GOING
RIGHT NOW, WHAT THE GOVERNMENTIS PLANNING TO DO.
THEY SEEM LIKE THEY'RE KIND OFCONFUSED RIGHT NOW ABOUT WHAT
THEY WANT TO DO WITH ME.
>> Jon: REALLY?
( LAUGHTER )SO WHILE YOU WERE THINKING OF
THAT, YOU WROTE ANOTHER BOOK.
>> YEAH.
( LAUGHTER )THAT WAS MY ANSWER TO THE
GOVERNMENT.
>> Jon: THIS BOOK IS AREALLY INTERESTING EXAMINATION
OF THE CORRUPTION UNDERLYING OURWAR CONFLICTS.
>> RIGHT.
>> Jon: AND INTELLIGENCEAPPARATUS.
>> BASICALLY WHAT I REALIZEDWAS-- REMEMBER WHEN DICK CHENEY
SAID THE GLOVES COME OFF.
WHAT THAT REALLY MEANT WAS WEWERE GETTING RID OF ALL THE
RULES THAT GOVERNED THE WAR ONTERROR, AND AT THE SAME TIME WE
GOT RID OF ALL THE RULES, WEPOURED HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF
DOLLARS INTO THE WAR ON TERROR.
SO YOU HAD A MASSIVE ENTERPRISEWITH HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF
DOLLARS WITH NO RULES, AND IT'SA LOT LIKE THE BANKING CRISIS.
WE HAVE HAD A NATIONAL SECURITYCRISIS AND NOBODY HAS NOTICED.
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> THAT'S VERY SIMILAR TO THEBANKING CRISIS.
WITH A LOT OF UNINTENDEDCONSEQUENCES.
>> Jon: AND BOTH SEEMINGLYPURPOSEFUL.
>> YEAH.
>> Jon: I THINKBOTH INSTITUTIONS -- IT'S AN
INTERESTING ANALOGY BECAUSEBOTH OBFUSCATE VERY MUCH IN A
DETERMINED WAY, SO THAT YOUCAN'T SEE WHAT'S GOING ON.
>> RIGHT. YEAH,
AND THE SECRECY THAT'S LAYEREDON TOP OF THE WAR ON TERROR HAS
MADE IT SO LOTS OF PEOPLE HAVEBEEN ABLE TO COME TO WASHINGTON,
CLAIM TO BE AN EXPERT ONCOUNTER-TERRORISM, AND GOTTEN
VERY RICH.
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> AND THEY ALL CLAIM THAT THEYHAVE THE SILVER BULLET TO FIND
OSAMA BIN LADEN OR TO SOLVE THEWAR ON TERROR-- WHATEVER.
>> Jon: RIGHT. AND THIS GET TOSOME OF THE WHISTLED BLOWERS,
ALSO, THE CASE OF A FELLOW NAMEDDRAKE, WHO BLEW BLEW THE WHISTLE
ON GOVERNMENT EXCESS, AND THEYNEARLY PUT THAT GUY IN JAIL FOR
35 YEARS.
>> RIGHT. RIGHT. RIGHT.
THERE WERE, LIKE, FIVE PEOPLE ATTHE N.S.A., AND AT THE HOUSE
INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE COMBINED,THAT THEY ALL THOUGHT WERE
SOURCES FOR OUR STORIES IN THE"NEW YORK TIMES" ON THE N.S.A.,
INCLUDING TOM DRAKE, AND THEYWENT AFTER ALL OF THEM.
NONE OF THEM WERE OUR SOURCES.
AND THEY TURNED THEIR LIVESUPSIDE DOWN FOR YEARS.
>> Jon: NOW, IT BRINGS UPAN INTERESTING POINT BECAUSE
THERE ARE, I WOULD ASSUME, YOUWOULD THINK THERE ARE LINES OF
NATIONAL SECURITY THAT WE SHOULDNOT CROSS IN TERMS OF GIVING
THINGS OUT.
>> RIGHT.
>> Jon: THE QUESTION IS WHODECIDES WHAT THOSE LINES ARE AND
WHEN THEY BRING THE FULL FORCEOF THESE AGENCIES AGAINST YOU--
FOR INSTANCE, WHY IS YOUR STORYDIFFERENT THAN SOME OF THE
OTHER-- THE STORY ABOUT SPYINGON GERMANY, THE STORIES
ABOUT OTHER-- WHY YOU?
WHY DRAKE?
WHY THESE OTHER WHISTLEBLOWERS?
>> WELL YOU KNOW -- ITHINK THERE IS A VERY
ARBITRARY SYSTEMIN PLACE NOW THAT GIVES THE
INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITYAND THE WHITE HOUSE
AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT ANABILITY TO RANDOMLY AND
ARBITRARILY DECIDE WHICH STORIESTHEY WANT TO GO AFTER TO
INVESTIGATE AND WHICH THEYDON'T.
AND BASICALLY WHAT THEY'RETRYING TO CREATE IS A PATHWAY
FOR ACCEPTABLE NATIONAL SECURITYJOURNALISM.
IF YOU GO OUTSIDE THE ACCEPTEDLIMITS OF WHAT THEY WANT PEOPLE
TO REPORT ON, YOU'LL GETPUNISHED.
IF YOU STAY IN THE ACCEPTEDLIMITS THAT THEY WANT, YOU WON'T
HAVE ANY PROBLEMS.
AND THAT'S WHAT I THINK ISDANGEROUS TO A DEMOCRACY, WHEN
YOU HAVE INVESTIGATIVE REPORTINGTHAT THE GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO
LIMIT THROUGH THE USE OF THEJUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND THE LEGAL
SYSTEM.
AND WITHIN THE LEGALSYSTEM, IS IT THE SPYING
APPARATUS THAT DECIDES?
CAN THEY CALL UP AND SAY-- CANTHE C.I.A. OR THE N.S.A. CALL UP
THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND SAY,"HE MADE US VERY UPSET?"
>> YES, EXACTLY, THAT'S EXACTLYWHAT HAPPENS.
THE C.I.A. OR THE DIRECTOR OFNATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, OR ANY
OTHER INTELLIGENCE AGENCY CANFILE WHAT THEY CALL A CRIMINAL
REFERRAL.
>> Jon: A CRIMINALREFERRAL.
>> TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENTDEPARTMENT AND THAT'S WHAT GETS
THE BALL ROLLING ON A LEAKINVESTIGATION IS THE C.I.A.
>> Jon: LET ME ASK YOU AQUESTION-- IF THE C.I.A.
PURPOSEFULLY LEAKS SOMETHING ORTHE N.S.A.-- I'M NOT SUGGESTING
THAT THAT HAS HAPPENED-- BUT ITHAPPENS.
>> RIGHT.
>> Jon: WHO CAN THEN GOAFTER THEM?
>> NOBODY.
THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE OFFICIALLEAKS AND UNOFFICIAL LEAKS.
THE OFFICIAL LEAKS, NOBODY GOESAFTER.
THE UNOFFICIAL LEAKS THAT MAKETHEM LOOK BAD OR THAT THEY DON'T
LIKE, THOSE ARE THE CASES THEYPURSUE.
>> Jon: DO YOU TRUST THEJOURNALISTIC COMMUNITY TO FIND
THAT LINE?
>> IT'S VERY DIFFICULT.
I MEAN, BECAUSE WE-- AT THE SAMETIME, WE'VE BEEN GOING THROUGH
THIS CRACKDOWN ON WHISTLEBLOWERSAND REPORTERS, JOURNALISM HAS
GONE THROUGH A DRAMATICREDUCTION AND FINANCIAL CRISIS
>> Jon: RIGHT. AND BECOMING MOREDANGEROUS FOR THOSE-- IT'S SORT
OF BEEN DEMOCRATIZED AND PEOPLEPUT THEMSELVES IN TRUE DANGERS.
>> RIGHT. YEAH, YEAH. RIGHT.YEAH. THE FREELANCERS IN SYRIA,
YOU KNOW, THEY'RE NOT BACKEDBY ANY MAJOR ORGANIZATION.
>> Jon: RIGHT.
>> SO IT'S A VERY DANGEROUS TIMEFOR JOURNALISTS.
THE INDUSTRY IS REMAKING ITSELFRIGHT NOW, AND SO THE MODELS OF
HOW YOU DO THIS KIND OFREPORTING ARE BREAKING DOWN.
>> Jon: IT'S-- IT'S REALLYA FASCINATING AND SLIGHTLY
FRIGHTENING THING.
DO YOU HAVE A COUPLE OF MINUTETO STICK AROUND.
>> SURE.
>> Jon: WE'LL CONTINUE TO TALKABOUT IT?
"PAY THE PRICE," IT'S ON THEBOOKSHELVES NOW.
JAMES RISIN.
>> Jon: THAT'S OUR SHOW.
LISTEN UP.
SO, I'VE KNOWN AASIF MANDVI FORMANY YEARS.
YOU KNOW HE'S A CORRESPONDENTON THE PROGRAM.
SO RECENTLY I FIND OUT, HE CANREAD.
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