On Nov. 28, 2012, TIME editors sat with Egypt’s president for an exclusive interview, his first since helping to broker the Gaza cease-fire
Send to Kindle [Note: TIME had spelled the president’s surname as “Morsy” based on his Ph.D. dissertation for the University of Southern California; his advisers in Cairo say the preferred spelling is now Morsi. Protocol required President Morsi to answer questions from TIME editors and reporters in his native Arabic, the official language of Egypt. Instead, as a courtesy to his guests, he spoke for most of the hour in English, which he last spoke regularly three decades ago.]
TIME: You’re on the world stage now.
President Mohamed Morsi: (In English) The world stage is very difficult. It’s not easy to be on the world stage. The world is now much more difficult than it was during your revolution. It’s even more difficult. The world. More complicated, complex, difficult. It’s a spaghetti-like structure. It’s mixed up. So we need to somehow take things, easily, so we can go together, the whole world — peacefully, peacefully, hopefully, all kinds of peace. I think you know that in general people like to say that we should keep peace by all means. I’m not talking about peace by its traditional meaning. Peace of mind, peace of heart, peace of living together, socially, culturally, not only militarily.
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(Switching to Arabic) Thank you for your interest… a good bridge between Egypt and the U.S.
(In English) By the U.S., I mean the American people more than the authorities, politicians, etc. But the American people as I know are quite friendly, they are civilized, they have struggled, and they have given a lot of their country, to the world. It’s a different climate as we see from here but I think the media now have made things very close… [i.e., made the world a smaller place] and people are a small village, getting together.
Winds are blowing here and there and people are busy with their lifestyles but I think they are looking to see a better situation in the world during President Obama’s second [term], which is more relaxed. I want to make use of this myself, to have a very strong bridge between us, between the Middle East, Middle Eastern people, and east and west, and certain balance. So people can live feeling really that they are living peacefully, that they are settled and well established in their countries. That they are really doing the best at gaining what they expect, to live in peace, to feel democracy, freedom.
People here haven’t experienced any sort of that for more than 30 years — more. Decades living under very suppressive regime, very dictatorial… quite [distant] from the suffering. People felt they were not included in the equation of politics. You know, I’ve been suffering myself. I have seen East and West, here and there, studying history and seeing what’s going on, besides engineering of course. [Note: Morsi has a 1982 Ph.D. in engineering from the University of Southern California.] I have learned a lot from being here and there, especially in the United States, living with the people in the states, and the university, and industry, and the markets and the shops.
Of course the media then wasn’t as strong as it is now, but I [would wake up] to Good Morning America every day, Barbara Walters and her great programs. And of course,Walter Cronkite… And I haven’t forgot … the captives in Iran [during the Carter presidency]…. [And the day he left office] they released the captives, who had been held for more than a year. That was a big struggle and debate going on.
Things have been going on in a certain way between East and West, and also the South. The people in the South have also been suffering a lot from being put out of the international equation. Now we want to bring the people into international affairs, so they feel that they are living in their countries, they are free, they say, they move, they produce, they work, they gain, they lose, whatever. This is very important. This is a new period, I think, not only for Egypt or the people of the Arab Spring, but I think for the whole world. To reconsider what has been done wrong in the past and see how can we make it correct, as much as we can. It takes time. So speed is low, acceleration is high. Somehow we’re pushing in all directions, trying to say to the people of the world, and convince the governments and the leaders that we should live at peace.
Conflict does not lead to stability in the world. Cooperation, how can we do that? It’s a struggle. It’s a very, very difficult struggle. To have a new culture, international culture, respecting individual countries and people’s cultures, their local ones, but can we have an international culture? Can we do that? A culture of cooperation, a culture of stopping war, bloodshed. Culture of real peaceful means of trade, militant actions to defend, not to attack, of using power in civilian applications, more than in militant applications. How can we do that? I think we can. It has been done earlier really, two or three centuries, back. But things have been done in certain way. Two world wars, more than 50 million killed…
I don’t like people in my country to say, “The United States is against us,” because I know the American people are different from these positions that have been taken for a long time — double standards — and you know what’s going on in the world. But now I think I’m starting a new era, based on balanced, mutual benefits relationship which should be respected from all sides. Africa. The Arab world. The Islamic world. European Union, Russia and China. There is a very, very big strong difficult competition.
That’s why I say It’s not as easy as it was. I still remember, there was a saying in the United States, when the people say we are a nation of all nations. This is an expressive expression. It tells something [in a] very short, concentrated [way]. It says: we can live together. I think the States has been successful at this to a great extent. But internationally there are other things. The evaluation says different things.
So how can we do this? Economics now are not balanced in the world. Raw materials are one part, technology and products — very advanced scientific applications — are in the other side. Taking the raw materials, producing it, selling it back, there is a very big difference in price, keep the poor poorer, make the rich richer. We want to make some sort of balance in economics, not only in politics. They are related of course. And I think socially, we cannot be identical, never. Culturally, we cannot be identical.
We can cooperate, we can integrate. As much as we can. How can we do that? I think leaders in the world have a great responsibility in this. Human beings can live together.
I remember a movie. Which one? Planet of the Apes. The old version, not the new one. There is new one. Which is different. Not so good. It’s not expressing the reality as it was the first one. But at the end, I still remember, this is the conclusion: When the big monkey, he was head of the supreme court I think — in the movie! — and there was a big scientist working for him, cleaning things, has been chained there. And it was the planet of the apes after the destructive act of a big war, and atomic bombs and whatever in the movie. And the scientists was asking him to do something, this was 30 years ago: “Don’t forget you are a monkey.” He tells him, “Don’t ask me about this dirty work.” What did the big ape, the monkey say? He said, “You’re human, you did it [to] yourself.” That’s the conclusion. Can we do something better for ourselves?
I saw it 30 years ago. That is the role of the art. This is the very important role of art. Gone with the Wind has been treating social problems. Five in Hell. That was the Arabic title. Five Americans working behind German lines and they were using primitive military devices. I think it was Charles Bronson or something like that. My hard disk still carries a few things!
(PHOTOS: Thousands in Cairo Protest Morsi’s Decree)
What was it like to deal with president Obama during the Gaza cease-fire?
President Obama has been very helpful, very helpful. And I can say really that his deeds coincide with his intentions. We’ve been talking together about the cease-fire, that’s very important, then we can talk about differences between Palestinians and Israelis. It’s not easy. It’s very difficult. Both sides are talking about differences. We want them to talk about similarities…. We are now doing this job as much as we can.
If we can succeed with 60-70% I consider this a big success. If we go forward, this area of the world will be better as far as peace is concerned. The stability of this area, Egypt and surroundings, is very important. That’s why we have a big challenge in Egypt. We have forces that try to drag back. This is no doubt. And also you can see that in Tunisia. You can see that in Libya. You can see that seriously in Syria, dragging situations back to whatever it was is a [goal]. We’re fighting [for this goal], not the people. And this area should have its opportunity to develop. The price of development is much, much cheaper than war. People are looking strongly to see better situations, better lives for their children, grandchildren, for their area.
It takes time. It’s a bottleneck. A bottleneck takes years. In the States it has taken years and blood, for a long time, not a short time. And Abraham Lincoln was considered a milestone, telling the people how to get together after the war, how can we see our country in a better situation. [He’d] been given a chance, and I think he succeeded to a great extent. But suffering has created after it stability. Or insisting on stability when the suffering is more than after the birth, people will realize that they should stick with what they have achieved.
So when the world is looking to itself to see what’s going on, I think they’re now realizing, people in the world are realizing that freedom is better than dictatorship. Democracy is better for the whole world. if there is a spot where you have dictatorship, where people are not free, people are not satisfied, they do not find food and shelter, they are under the poverty level, this is a dangerous spot for the whole world, because those people will move, and they will move to different places. They will be carrying bad feelings towards others. They may behave badly. They may behave wrongly. So how can we assure development for Africa, for the Middle East, for countries in this area? Egyptians are ready. We have resources. We have potential. We have very unique distinguished [population], so to speak. We are ready. We are in the road. We are trying to push and go. It’s not easy. The momentum that is needed for this pushing should be very high.
Our ship has been somehow put on the sand, not on the water, so we have to drag it forward, not backward, to real clean water. It’s not easy. To keep good relationship with the world, to help development, to make integration between development and international affairs and investment and economics, to spread over the good intentions and acts, also. To have mutual and balanced relationships with others. To take hatred from the hearts that has been built up. People have been seeing all the time: bloodshed in Palestine and different places, Iraq and Afghanistan, now in Yemen, Libya. They feel bad. [Trials that divide] North and South, East and West, Darfur, whatever. [Instability] in the Gulf. Threatening Iran and its role in international politics and the world. The fight around the fields of oils. These all are things that are mixed up together, that needs stronger leadership, with a vision… who should take the lead and act.
It’s time [for] action. Principles are agreed upon. But application of the principles? No one can debate about the principles. Everyone talks about peace, everyone talks about development, everyone talks about independence of different countries. The United Nations was built in 1947. Before that was the League of Nations. But actually, on the ground, the action is weak. I think we are more than 190 states. Now the Palestinians are trying to have a foot on the ground. And we help them. That doesn’t mean they will be capable to [stage] attacks on others. I don’t think they have this capability. The maximum they have is to resist, is to say what [do] we have to lose?
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Is the Muslim Brotherhood in fact a democratic organization?
By definition, yes. It’s a big yes, sure. This stems from belief, Islamic belief, freedom for everyone, freedom of belief, freedom of expressing their opinions, equality, stability, human rights. ERA. It’s not only in America. Equal Rights Amendment. Everyone. This is a belief, this is coming from our belief: democracy, equal chance. But also responsibility. Law, constitution.
Egypt is an ancient country; it’s an ancient state also. The constitution in Egypt is quite old. 1923. [The] first one. And we move toward more stable positions. We cannot get stable unless we have freedom, democracy, rights for everyone, equal rights, equal rights for men and women, for Muslim, Christians, for whoever is carrying any opinion The common thing, the base line, the reference is, the nationality, the citizenship–Egyptian, that’s all. And the law is for everyone.
We have had big violations. So what the Muslim Brotherhood has all the time trying to have settled is an institutional, constitutional state, so if we have the opportunity, I think It’s for the benefit of the Egyptians, the benefit of everyone in Egypt, Christians and Muslims and the benefit to the Muslim Brotherhood and others is to have an institutional, constitutional state.
(Switching to Arabic) I’m very keen on having true freedom of expression. True freedom of faith. And free practice of religious faith. I am keen and I will always be keen on exchange [transfer] of power. I’m an elected president. My chief responsibility is to maintain the national ship to go through this transitional period. This is not easy. Egyptians are determined to [move] forward within the path of freedom and democracy, and this is what I see. Justice and social justice. Development with its comprehensive overall meaning. Human development. Industrial productive development. Scholarly research. Political development. International relations balanced with all different parties, East and West. We are keen in Egypt and I am personally keen right now on maintaining freedom, democracy, justice and social justice. The MB do not say anythi