Roman Catholic cardinals gather to choose a new pope. Diane and her guests discuss transition at the Vatican and challenges facing the world’s largest Christian denomination.

• 10:06:55

  MS. DIANE REHMThanks for joining us. I'm Diane Rehm. Today, Pope Benedict XVI leaves Rome for the papal vacation home. While he's there, Roman Catholic bishops will gather at the Vatican to choose his successor. Here to discuss Benedict's surprising resignation, the process for electing a new pope and challenges facing the Roman Catholic Church: Father Thomas Reese of Georgetown University, Sister Maureen Fiedler of public radio's Interfaith Voices, Father Mark Morozowich of Catholic University.

• 10:07:34

  MS. DIANE REHMAnd joining us by phone from Rome, Jason Horowitz of The Washington Post. Do join us, 800-433-8850. Send us an email to drshow@wamu.org. Follow us on Facebook or Twitter. Good morning to all of you.

• 10:07:56

  REV. THOMAS REESEGood morning.

• 10:07:56

  SISTER MAUREEN FIEDLERGood morning, Diane.

• 10:07:56

  VERY REV. MARK MOROZOWICHGood morning.

• 10:07:57

  MR. JASON HOROWITZGood morning.

• 10:07:58

  REHMJason Horowitz, if I could start with you, tell us who is in charge at 8:01 this evening when Pope Benedict steps down.

• 10:08:14

  HOROWITZWell, I guess, technically, no one is in charge because there's something called a sede vacante which is, you know, the empty throne. It's the period between when the pope -- usually when the pope dies, in this case, when the pope leaves, and when the new pope is elected. There are Vatican officials who take charge during this period.

• 10:08:40

  HOROWITZAnd so the secretary of state who's number two -- Benedict's number two will be -- he'll be acting as something called the camerlengo which basically what -- he'll be the guy in charge but without the power to do anything really vast or game-changing during the time when there's no pope but just to kind of make sure that the pope -- that the Vatican stays up and running.

• 10:09:07

  REHMSo give us the timeline of when do these bishops and cardinals who have gathered begin the process of selecting a successor.

• 10:09:24

  HOROWITZWell, that's actually a great question because it's a little bit in flux right now. Today, the pope said his final farewell to about 144 of those cardinals at around 5:00. In less than an hour, he is going to leave the Vatican, take a helicopter about 15 miles out to his vacation summer home in Castel Gandolfo. And you know, so that's really what, you know, that's what we're going to be facing. You know, there's -- at that part, we don't know when the conclave would actually going to start.

• 10:10:04

  HOROWITZStarting next week, early, the cardinals are going to start meeting and discussing amongst themselves when this -- when the conclave, which is the process by which the pope is selected, when that actually begins. And that's actually new also because the pope had an amendment to kind of apostolic constitution on Monday, essentially saying it's in the College of Cardinals' hands when to decide this. And so there's actually debate amongst the cardinals when they should start.

• 10:10:37

  REHMI see.

• 10:10:39

  HOROWITZYeah.

• 10:10:39

  REHMAll right. And you've said that Vatican officials were surprised to learn that Benedict would take the name pope emeritus. How did that come about, and what kind of questions does that title raise?

• 10:11:03

  HOROWITZWell, we know that they were surprised because in a briefing the day before he took the name, one of -- a Vatican official, an archbishop who's actually going to be the vice camerlengo, who's going to be kind of helping oversee things during the sede vacante, he was asked specifically, do you think that the pope might take the name of pope emeritus? And he said, no, that doesn't make any sense. That's a bad idea because that title keeps a connection to the office. It would just be confusing, and that's exactly what he did.

• 10:11:39

  REHMAnd are you as surprised as the other cardinals and bishops?

• 10:11:49

  HOROWITZYeah. I think it is surprising. I think that, you know, it's a remarkable situation. You're going to have two popes on the grounds of the Vatican because the pope is eventually going to come back and live in a monastery in the back of the Vatican. And there's just a lot of confusion about, you know, lines of authority. The pope said today -- Pope Benedict said today that he would be completely obedient to whoever the new pope is.

• 10:12:14

  HOROWITZBut one very interesting thing is that they're actually going to share a key personnel member which is the personal secretary to Pope Benedict, Georg Ganswein, who's, you know, one of his closest people, is also the head of the papal household, and that means he's also going to be serving the new pope. So he's going to be living with the old pope but working kind of a day job with the new pope, and that seems awfully porous for a lot of people.

• 10:12:42

  REHMAnd that is the voice of Washington Post reporter Jason Horowitz. Turning to you now, Father Thomas Reese, aren't there concerns about having two popes?

• 10:12:57

  REESEOh, I have real concerns about that. I think it would have been much better if the pope had returned to his original name, Joseph Ratzinger, and become Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger just...

• 10:13:12

  REHMWhy?

• 10:13:13

  REHMWell, because it's very dangerous in the church to have two popes. Now, I don't think Benedict is not going to try and upstage the new pope. But if he writes anything, people in the media are going to go over it with a fine-toothed comb and say, oh, well, he's saying this, and the new pope is saying this.

• 10:13:32

  REHMIs he going to publish what he writes?

• 10:13:34

  REESEI -- this is a good question. We don't know the answer to that question. He is a scholar. He's an academic. He loves to write. So I wouldn't be surprised if he continued to write.

• 10:13:47

  REHMFather Mark, how do you feel about that?

• 10:13:49

  MOROZOWICHWell, I would probably disagree a little bit with Tom. I think that we have to look at the pope as the bishop of Rome and as the bishop of Rome when he retires, just like the bishop of Washington retired, Theodore McCarrick, so he is still the bishop emeritus of Washington. So when we begin to look at this, even the title pontific itself was from Roman times.

• 10:14:11

  MOROZOWICHSo the bearing of the title pope is something that I think we need to, you know, sort of develop our understanding of exactly what is the pope and, you know, to really make it distinguishing that the pope himself is not infallible. The office of the papacy is, but the person himself does not enjoy infallibility.

• 10:14:30

  REHMMaureen Fiedler, how do you see it?

• 10:14:33

  FIEDLERWell, like Father Reese, I'm extremely concerned about it because the new pope, whoever he is, is going to be living in the Vatican, and here is this former pope who is just going to be a building away, you know? And if Pope Benedict Emeritus wants to influence the direction of the church or who doesn't like something that the new pope might decide to do, who knows what can happen in the back channels of the Vatican? I think that's unknown.

• 10:15:01

  REHMJason Horowitz, do I understand correctly that the building into which Pope Benedict is going to be moving was actually vacated by the nuns back in November? And should we have all taken that as some kind of hint, clue, forewarning that Pope Benedict was going to step down?

• 10:15:36

  HOROWITZWell, I think that if -- whoever thought that, you know, the nuns leaving that monastery meant that the pope was going to retire was -- is a very smart person, and we should be talking to them because I don't think anybody really thought that that was what was going to happen. And we're not really -- I'm not really sure when the pope made his decision but it, you know, the more interesting thing is the fact that he's going to be there on the grounds, which is what everyone is talking about.

• 10:16:04

  HOROWITZAnd that we've already, you know, seen that this is an institution and a culture where back channeling is the right word, but also, you know, people are exploited and people are -- people's names are used. So even if Pope Benedict perhaps, you know, keeps his head low and doesn't do anything, maybe people close to him will drop his name and say, well, I don't think that, you know, Pope Emeritus Benedict likes this. You know, it just creates a lot of problems.

• 10:16:32

  REHMFather Mark.

• 10:16:34

  MOROZOWICHWell, certainly, there's always influence. There's discussion. There's going to be all sorts of backchannel talk. But when it comes down to it, Benedict will not have the power that the new pope will have. And as such, the new pope decrees, Benedict has declared that he will submit. So, you know, I mean, I personally wouldn't mind it if he would publish. Even his books that were published were not published as pope. They were published as Joseph Ratzinger. And that's a fine point, but I think we need to be attentive to that.

• 10:17:04

  REHMMaureen.

• 10:17:06

  FIEDLERThere's something about this whole system that is so monarchical and so out of touch with the 21st century because here you have essentially a monarch emeritus giving way to a new monarch. And I think that's a whole system that the church, perhaps this next conclave, needs to look at and re-examine.

• 10:17:27

  REHMFather Tom Reese.

• 10:17:29

  REESEWell, one of the issues here is all of these decisions are being made now before the new pope comes. I mean, I think some of these decisions should have waited until the new pope comes.

• 10:17:39

  REHMSuch as?

• 10:17:40

  REESEWell, such as where Benedict is going to live. He needs the permission of the new pope to live in the Vatican. He doesn't own the Vatican once he resigns, the new pope does. So, I mean, these kinds of decisions, I think, tie the hands of the new pope. And I think this is simply a mistake. I think, you know, he should have laid aside his white garment. He should have returned to the name of Cardinal Ratzinger, bishop emeritus of Rome.

• 10:18:11

  REESEBut using the term pope -- I mean, in the Catholic Church, symbols matter, so, you know, a white garment matters, these kinds of things. So I -- now, I don't think it's going to be a major problem with Pope Benedict because he's a humble man and he's not going to interfere. But we're an institution that's supposed to think in terms of centuries. What about the next one?

• 10:18:33

  REHMFather Thomas Reese, he is senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University. When we come back, we're going to talk about Pope Benedict's legacy. Stay with us.

• 10:20:04

  REHMAnd welcome back. As we talk about the fact that in just a few hours, Pope Benedict will step down. He will become pope emeritus, a designation of his own choosing that some people are concerned about because it will mean that there are two living popes, one of whom, of course, is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church, the other emeritus.

• 10:20:42

  REHMHere in the studio: Father Thomas Reese of Georgetown University, Sister Maureen Fiedler, she is host of public radio's Interfaith Voices, and Father Mark Morozowich, he's dean of the School of Theology and Religious at The Catholic University of America. Joining us by phone from Rome is Jason Horowitz, reporter for The Washington Post. Maureen Fiedler, I'd like to start with you and get you to talk about how you see Pope Benedict's legacy.

• 10:21:25

  FIEDLERWell, Pope Benedict was, if nothing else, a theologian, but he was a very traditional, very conservative theologian. He belongs in the line of popes like Pope John Paul II who really attempted to reverse the whole spirit of the Second Vatican Council, which reformed the church in the 20th century. Now, to his credit, he was very strong on social justice issues and economic inequality. He railed against that in a way that would please any liberal Democrat in the United States. He was also known as the green pope. He was very strong on climate change and moving the Vatican towards solar power.

• 10:22:05

  FIEDLERBut all of those things got buried in discussions of the sex abuse scandal where, unfortunately, he tried to clean it up, but he never held a bishop or a cardinal accountable for the transgressions, for covering up for priests. And, unfortunately, that will be part of his legacy. I think -- and, of course, overwhelmingly, the discussions in the church have focused not on social justice issues but on sexuality issues, whether it's reproduction or whether it's gay and lesbian issues.

• 10:22:39

  FIEDLERThe pope could've said anything on economic inequality or the environment, but most people would never have heard it because it got buried. And I think that's really unfortunate. And, finally, I'd say he was a theologian, but he wasn't a communicator. And I often wondered when he gave speeches like that was -- which was badly received by Muslims, who was vetting what he said.

• 10:23:05

  REHMFather Mark, how do you see his legacy?

• 10:23:09

  MOROZOWICHOh, I think that Pope Benedict leaves the church with a broad wealth of material, certainly in his own writing, certainly in his papal writings as well. Now, he didn't have the longevity in the papacy that John Paul II had in terms of the breath of encyclicals.

• 10:23:24

  MOROZOWICHBut if we begin to look at the encyclicals and some of the things that Pope Benedict has called the church to, the very new evangelization, the whole attention to how do we live this life anew as well nominating this as the year of faith in an attempt to really live the spirit of the Second Vatican Council forward in continuity with tradition. In particular, I think also we need to listen to his words that he gave last night and how he wished joy to all and how he echoed the words of John the 23rd and said, "When you go home tonight, give your children a kiss and tell them with love from the pope."

• 10:24:10

  REHMJason Horowitz, you say Pope Benedict's legacy may be his resignation.

• 10:24:21

  HOROWITZI think that when you look at Pope Benedict's legacy, I think, you know, I think that he's leaving is going to be his legacy, the way he left office. I think that, you know, for theologians, he'll be remembered for what he wrote. But I think that more broadly, people are going to remember him as the first pope in about, you know, 600 years who resigned.

• 10:24:44

  HOROWITZAnd I think that that's going to really be the thing that he is remembered for. Now, there are other things that have been overlooked by Benedict that he actually tried to reform the Roman Curia which is the kind of bureaucracy that runs the Vatican, which is dysfunctional to say the least. And he tried to introduce some reforms that would bring a little bit more transparency in.

• 10:25:07

  HOROWITZBut because he was an extremely strong manager, the resistance kind of overcame him. And so that's also kind of in doubt, that legacy, so I think that there's all kinds of debate about him. But the one thing that's going to be clear is that people are going to remember him as the guy who changed the precedent.

• 10:25:26

  REHMAnd, Father Reese, there's been scandal as the conclave itself meets as to whether certain cardinals with possible connections to sex abuse should be there.

• 10:25:43

  REESEYes. This is clearly a big issue that is being discussed. I mean, the sex abuse crisis in the Catholic Church has been an absolute disaster. First of all, for the children who are abused, they have been scarred for life. And, you know, we in the church need to get down to our knees and apologize, apologize, apologize to them and do everything possible to help them to heal.

• 10:26:10

  REESEPope Benedict, when he first came as a cardinal to the Vatican, didn't understand the sex abuse crisis. Very few clerics did at that time. He made mistakes, but he learned. That was the great thing. He learned. He listened to the American bishops, and he learned, and he became the leader in the Vatican for improving things. He threw out hundreds of priests, hundreds of bad priests out of the priesthood.

• 10:26:39

  REESESo that the church is in a much better position today in relationship to sexual abuse than it was at the beginning of the papacy of John Paul II. And he was much better in dealing with this crisis than John Paul II was. The big thing that they missed was that they never held bishops accountable for not, you know, managing this crisis well. People should've been forced to resign, to take responsibility and resign. And tragically, that was the piece that was missing.

• 10:27:15

  REHMJason Horowitz, describe what was published in the Italian press this week. How did the Vatican react, and are these reports credible?

• 10:27:31

  HOROWITZWell, I -- just today, by the way, there's a new update which is a magazine named Panorama, which is one of the leading Italian magazines, reported that Cardinal Bertone, who is Benedict's number two who's actually the guy who's going to be in charge of the Vatican during the interregnum, he apparently, according to this report, has been tapping the phones of people in the Vatican for the last year, trying to get at who is the source of leaks.

• 10:28:05

  HOROWITZAnd there was a big leak scandal. Now, first, I gave a call to the Vatican, and they say that the only security initiative that they know about were, you know, passes for doors, electronic passes for doors to get through, and they say it's not true. But they also say that they don't know about it. So that's not the strongest denial. But there are other reports, and they all go back to giant leak scandal that basically overwhelmed and was a backdrop of Benedict's last year in office.

• 10:28:36

  HOROWITZAnd in it, there was a lot of papal correspondence. Really, there's intimate letters between the pope and his closest, you know, the princes of the church, the cardinals, in which they expressed grievances and other bishops expressed grievances. And those are best in a traditional channel of correspondents that's very confidential. And a lot of those letters found their way into the press.

• 10:29:00